Leica Elmarit 60 issues

@Krisky thanks you for your thorough comment @Mark_Segal.

He was quite surprised by the results from the Flextight scans, surprised, because he hadn’t even realized their dynamic range was lacking until he made baryta prints in the darkroom. It became immediately clear that the prints outperformed the scans in a way that felt unacceptable. By that point, he had already scanned nearly half the negatives. But making 777 baryta prints was out of the question - too time-consuming, too labor-intensive, and far too expensive. And even then, he would still need to document every print, with all the hassle that entails.

Then something unexpected happened. He stumbled across a snapshot he had taken of the negatives under the enlarger light, just a quick photo from the light table outside the darkroom - and noticed the same dynamic range in that image. That discovery opened up a new possibility.

He has worked with the Flextight for over twenty-five years and tested both the X1 and X5 models on these particular negatives. They’re Tri-X, pushed two stops to ISO 1600—which might be part of the problem. He also had to make analog prints from Ektar negatives for the same reason: the Flextight simply couldn’t handle them either, especially when push-processed. But with other films; Kodak Portra, Fuji Reala, Fuji Acros, Ilford - he’s had no issues at all. Those scan just fine, he says. This whole situation has left him baffled.

The grain is unusually aggressive, even with the unsharp mask turned off or dialed into the negative range, in the Flextight. But the biggest issue is in the blown out highlights; the grey areas that nearly solarize. He recalls a similar experience from his early days as an apprentice over twenty years ago, especially with cross-processed film and Agfa Ultra. Back then, he had to resort to a Nikon Coolscan 8000 to get usable scans.

He plans to share evidence of the advantages of a monochrome sensor as soon as the forum allows uploads. Personally, I believe the demosaicing process may be at the root of the degradation in Bayer sensors. You can see it at the pixel level, especially in the form of banding and loss of microcontrast. The files from a monochrome sensor just look cleaner, with greater dynamic range and more natural tonal gradation. Most importantly, the greys in black and white images feel more true, almost like you’re experiencing the silver of the negative itself. Tools like Negative Lab Pro only emphasize this difference further. It might not be significant for the naked eye, but when you print, offset or on high quality paper, you see it. Especially when making very large prints, where you have to interpolate a lot. Then the Bayer issues gets even worse.

He’s continuing to explore lenses and truly values all suggestions and input. The project he’s working on is massive - it’s about the generations that followed the greatest act of genosuicide in history, and it means the world to him. He has high hopes for Sigma, though he quietly fears the results won’t quite live up to the elusive feeling of the Elmarit. That good old German micro contrast that might just be in our minds. But if I know him, that’s probably just a touch of Leica fetishism talking. The last time we talked he was exploring the possibility of attaching a Leitz Focomat lens to the rig.

I personally find this process much more creative than scanning, especially with tools like Negative Lab Pro. Working in the dark at night, moving between the rig and the light table and the screen, the expectations and the dynamism of the process, it reminds me of the darkroom. And when I see his results I am dazzled to experience such an extreme upgrade in quality. The Flextight scans looked fine to me, but when I see the files processed through Negative Lab Pro the old Flextight scans look fake.

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I wonder if the Focotars will live up to expectations, I’ve not heard of people using them and they are enlarger l lenses so not optimised for 1:1.

If it was just one example of the Imacon then I would have suggested checking the colour correction filter that is clipped to the 75mm Magnagon, but he has obviously tried several.

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Thanks, all very interesting and I’ll look forward to seeing the comparisons.

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There might be something wrong with both of them @Harry. One he used is standing at a college he teaches at, and the students there can be quite ruthless to the equipment. The other one was at a lab, and I believe that went into service just a short while after. But the essence isn’t that the Flextight scans are directly bad. It’s that they are so much worse than the darkroom prints, which again are extremely similar to the Sony Monochrome scans.. So the solution is straight in front of us, and the only thing that keeps him from finishing is his favorite lens. He bought a second one to keep it on the rig at all times. We win some, we lose some, and in the end we buy a Sigma and are satisfied forever after.

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And I believe the Focotar setup is more of an experiment, @harry, which is half the fun in this wondrous world of camera scanning anyway. They don’t cost much, if anything.

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I use Sigma 105mm f2.8 Dg Dn 1:1 macro on Sony A73 or A7r3 with excellent results.

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At the moment we are in fact worrying if the Sigma lenses are too sharp and contrasty @fwolff.. @Krisky is buying a Focotar as a backup just in case.

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Hi @noahplacebo

Just to clarify this, @Krisky has NOT been banned or silence.

The automated spam filter on the forum software (discourse) flagged one of his comments. I’m not 100% sure why.

In any case, I have marked his comment as not spam so it should be showing now in this discussion. He should be able to continue posting, but please let me know if he is still having issues.

Yes. This.

This site (like all forums) get hit with a lot of spam attempts. With AI, these attempts have been becoming increasingly sophisticated. With that, there’s also been an increase in false positives.

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Thank you @nate.

It’s a great forum that has solved most of my issues with scanning the last year, together with your absolutely brilliant software.

Update

This Thursday, I’m getting the Focotar 50mm f/4.5, which I’ll be adapting using an M42 helicoid paired with an M39 adapter ring. Today, the Sigma 70mm Macro Art lens arrives. I’m genuinely excited to see how it stacks up against the Leica Elmarit 60mm Macro. I’ve heard whispers about high contrast and vignetting with the Sigma, which gives me some pause. That’s part of why the Focotar is coming in as a backup - not just out of caution, but because I have a deep love for the look and feel of vintage optics. And yes, @noahplacebo, I fully accept my fate as a hopeless Leicaphile. I’m also curious whether the Focotar will echo the Elmarit’s contrast characteristics. Not entirely sure how much that will matter for camera scanning, though.

What I do know is this: camera scanning is a wormhole. Or better yet, a whirlpool. And I’ve started to love the process of diving into it. It’s been a long time since I actually looked forward to digitizing my negatives, but now I get butterflies just thinking about it. @nate deserves massive credit for building a space where photographers can refine their techniques and gather the right tools to keep the art of film photography alive. That kind of platform is vital for the legacy of film to endure.

Here’s a little Flextight anecdote, this time connected to some new testing with camera scanning and Negative Lab Pro:

A colleague of mine joined me on a trip to Cambodia, where she captured over ten thousand architectural images - mostly of Angkor Wat, Bokor Hill Station, and the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum. She shot everything on a Hasselblad SWC, in square six-by-six format. The results are stunning, from what I’ve seen in her large c-prints.

Later on, she had many of the images scanned using a Flextight, paying more than eight thousand dollars for the service. Despite the investment, she was left feeling completely underwhelmed. She works almost exclusively in analog reproduction, and something about the scans didn’t land. She described them as sterile but couldn’t quite explain why. I haven’t seen them myself, but clearly something felt off.

Still, she’s working on a book. So what can she do?

Well - we’re going to re-scan the images using the Sigma DP3 Quattro, saving to DNG, and processing them with Negative Lab Pro. Definitely worth a try. I’ll share results in a future post when the time comes. One step at a time.

I’ll also report back with comparisons between monochrome and Bayer sensors. I’ve already tested the Foveon sensor against both the Sony A7RII and the Leica S2 (medium format), and in terms of documenting c-prints for offset printing, the APS-C Foveon delivered noticeably better results. We just produced a book made with Foveon reproductions at EBS in Verona, and the results are sometimes better than the original c-prints. I’m hoping that holds true when working with negatives as well.

What I do know is that a monochrome sensor has a noise floor around ISO 50, compared to the effective ISO 400 of a Foveon sensor relative to Bayer. Bayer sensors suffer from image degradation due to demosaicing, although that shouldn’t discourage anyone from using them. In fact, I’d probably be using one myself if it weren’t for this specific project - and the fact that I’m a shameless pixel peeper. For 98 percent of my photography, I rely on the Sony A7s. It’s versatile, fast, and practical.

There’s a real difference between Bayer, monochrome, and Foveon sensors. Whether that difference matters depends entirely on your eye and your standards. All I know is that I was never satisfied with my black and white prints on color paper back in the day, even though I could get them perfectly neutral in the darkroom. That mindset has carried over into my camera scanning workflow today.

The real difference between small and large sensors for scanning also interests me. At this point, I genuinely wonder if using an APS-C or Micro Four Thirds camera paired with a sharp full-frame lens - utilizing only the centre of the sensor - might be the best approach. I believe a 5,7K resolution should be sufficient for reproducing a 35mm negative, with optical sharpness being more important than megapixels. If I could do it all over again, I think I would have built a rig with the Lumix G9 II or GH6 and used pixel shift when necessary, or turned one of those monochrome, paired with the Leica Elmarit. The center sharpness of that lens is truly remarkable, and gives the same resolution as the A7RII in monochrome with pixel shift I realize. But I might be mistaken. Additionally, I believe the increased depth of field at f/8 with Micro Four Thirds is a significant advantage. Then there is the size of the pixels etc. and how these factors plays a role in camera scanning. So many considerations to evaluate.

Photography truly isn’t as simple as many people would like to believe - or are we just overcomplicating it? When I look at the works of Walker Evans, Joel Sternfeld, and Philip-Lorca diCorcia, I tend to believe it’s the former, not the latter.

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This should only be necessary if the scans she got are really lousy, e.g.. 2Mpixel images. Assuming a 10 inch print done at 300 ppi (not dpi) requires 3000 x 3000 exports, so something that is more than at least 3000 pixels on the short side should be okay.

It would be interesting to see such a scan. Please share one, if possible.

As for look and feel: Perfect scans should transport the character of the original negative and if this is not the case, I’d try to “fix” it with software rather than to rescan. You might also want to try DxO FilmPack. If you do, make sure you test thoroughly.

I’m not sure of the contrast issues with the sigma 70, but my A7R3 & Sigma 105 DG DN has always been excellent.

FW

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I’m loving all this detail. Those Imacon scans, any idea how the files were provided, for that kind of money I would have asked for the 3F file so she could process them herself in Flexcolor?

I remembered that I had seen mention of the Focotar, the 50mm in fact. These are pretty seriously conducted tests but bear in mind they are on APS-C, a Fuji X-T2:

You also probably need to read the introduction:

There’s also a 0.66x test:

The ‘score’ is not entirely relevant as Imatest favours the centre, but the differences between centre and edge are interesting.

This is very interesting, @Harry. Thank you again. Will look deeply into this.

On my friend; I don’t have much information about the scanning process, or whether she has 3F files, though she might. The thing is, she doesn’t know much about computers at all. We’re talking about an older woman who struggles with basic tasks, like attaching an image to an email properly, so this whole process is quite beyond her. I think she got a decent deal, a 70% discount, but we’re talking about over a thousand pictures here, so in the end, she still ended up paying a lot. After fifty years of working exclusively with analog photography, making the transition is understandably difficult.

Nothing compares to the darkroom, but in my opinion, camera scanning is the closest we can get.

This is a contact sheet of all 777 images I am scanning. The contact sheet is around two metres tall, so don’t expect to observe details, but it gives you an impression of the workload coming up:

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Yeah @Digitizer, I will take a look at her files when we have the time. They are 3200 dpi scans I guess. What was the resolution on the Flextight on medium format again? 2880 or something? I’ll ask her if I can publish one. I was always quite satisfied with my scans from Flextight in medium format myself, but there has been some years since I did any. Lost interest in medium format over one and a half decade ago. Maybe because she is not skilled with computers she gave the operator freedom to choose aesthetics, but I can imagine that the Flextight might cancel out some of the character she expects from real c-prints. That’s at least my experience, though I never let anyone else scan for me.

One more thing @Digitizer; she made most of her photographs in transition light. Sunset and sunrise, as well as really though conditions inside weird buildings, at least the ones I saw as prints, they are difficult to understand, so if a scanner operator is working from the principle that grey is grey, white is white and black is black, I can understand she might be baffled, because she is not really used to controlling contrast in the color darkroom, only color and brightness. Working with a professional analog printer is a very, very different thing to sitting in front of a scanner, working with camera scanning though is more similar, so I guess I could work out the idosyncratic colors live better than her last operator did. As I remember she said the scanner couldn’t work out the totally blue light just after sunset, when there is only a yellow stripe showing warmth, touching the horizon, and I can imagine that these kind of sceneries might encounter issues with Flextight. I remember the scanner not being able to render a yellow Fjällräven backpack shot with Kodak Ektar once for my last book, also shot in sunset, so that’s why I went back to the darkroom. It just looked like a monotone and oversaturated blob laying there on the bed. The darkroom rendered it just fine.

Why did you delete your post @noahplacebo?

Seems like Rodenstock APO-Rodagon 75mm f/4 is THE lens to go for @Harry… The Focotar only half the values at the edges..8.4 is almost The Dark Knight ratings, while 6.9 is more like Zoolander. @Krisky should have just listened to your first tip on the Rodagon man. Now he’s stuck with a Zoolander lens and Batman vs Superman lens.I found a mint condition Rodagon on ebay for only around 400 dollars. Not bad. Same price as the 70mm he just bought.

The plot thickens. Wow. Yeah. Those numbers do not give me hope. At least I didn’t pay much for the Focotar. Then again; the loss of sharpness might be mitigated by closing down the f. stop to 8. I guess these MTF tests are done at maximum aperture. At least I hope so, if not I have to buy the Rodenstock APO-Rodagon 75mm f/4, if the Sigma 70mm Art doesn’t deliver.